*channels Ruby's courage*

[marishna]

Here's the thing. I know people are going to look down on me for this. I know I'm going to get talked about, my name's going to be dragged through the mud and I'm going to lose respect from some people, and friends, and there are a lot of people that don't want to hear anymore wank or whatever. But at this point I don't really care because this is bullshit.

Feel free to skip this if you don't want to see anymore drama or want to know about the supernatural_tv stuff. At this point I don't think I want to anymore, either.



I have proof that supernatural_tv was stolen from the original creator and maintainer snarkstorm/ignoretherain. There was bad blood between potthead, hauntedlove,dieseled and the original maintainer because they said they had suggestions and wanted to help with the memories but snarkstorm didn't want to hand over maintainership roles to them. And for good reason, it seems.

So the story goes, snarkstorm let potthead have maintainership for a few minutes to fix the layout. In that short time she invited dieseled to be a maintainer, kicked out snarkstorm and moderated posting so she couldn't post something explaining the real story behind what happened. There might have also been some banning and then un-banning of snarkstorm. There's a little of both.

Then this post was made to announce that they had taken over and they were making changes to the comm. To the unsuspecting watcher it all seems great, right? Involved mods, new changes, going above and beyond for a fandom we all love.

Not so much. If you scrolled through the post or were directly linked to this comment before... today? you would have seen a comment from buffyspazz, pointing out that no, potthead and hauntedlove did NOT come by the community honestly and that they STOLE it. I'm surprised it lasted the year and a half it stayed there, actually.

So that was at the end of May. Prior to that I had complained to dorkdance that I didn't really like the new way supernatural_tv was being run. So, she suggested we start our own, supernaturalcw. Instead of bitching and complaining about that comm or trying to, I don't know, STEAL it, we just decided to start our own. I didn't really expect much to come of it but it was a place people could post, if they wanted. Whatever.

Somehow snarkstorm heard of the community and commented to the post. She explained that she was supportive of our comm because "Gen and Joya literally removed me from my own community and banned me so that they would have no problem doing so [...]". I engaged her in a thread conversation because I had no idea. There were no whispers in fandom, no inklings, nothing.

Within 24 hours of snarkstorm commenting on our post and telling us what REALLY went down with the community potthead and hauntedlove showed up in the post and they started explaining their side of what went down. Everything was fairly civil, aside it being retardedly surreal and very wtf. hauntedlove explained the situation as this: "Okay, yeah, Joya and I removed Brandi from her community, but we have in no way anything against her personally. The reason why we removed her is because she likes power and the idea of maintaining a community by herself, a little too much." potthead explained her version as this: "I kicked Brandi (ignoretherain) off supernatural_tv, and Gen and I now maintain it. Gen and I used to be mods. We asked Brandi if we could maintain the comm with her because it seemed the responsibility of the comm was a bit much for her [...]" Apparently snarkstorm was being "mean" and there are screencaps for proof of said meanness. She continues, "Keep your same opinions, develop new ones, etc. To be blunt, I don't really care. What's done is done. I didn't tell Brandi to be so rude to me that it drove us to kick her out. She can sit here and victimize herself as much as she wants, but in the end, I will believe what I choose to believem and you will believe what you choose to believe, but for anyone who cares, that's our side of the story, and although I regret having to go through the whole 'violent takeover' thing, I don't regret having to do it for the community."

Uh, yeah. So back and forth we go but the point still stands- they stole the comm and they're happy about it. We're baffled and can't get on board with it. Finally in the end potthead suggests all the comments be screened because we were apparently done with the conversation. They couldn't understand they'd done something wrong and we couldn't bring it to ourselves to drag it through the mud anymore because they weren't getting it, or at least caring about it.

This thing made it to clairvoyantwank but because we screened the comments and no one ever carried it further it died there. Fandom was smaller, dorkdance and I were still fairly new to the fandom and we didn't want to cause a stink. How do you bring this stuff up without seeming like a giant bitch out of the blue?

A year and a half. A year and a half I sat on this shit because I didn't want to regurgitate all of this stuff and seem like the bad guy. Because honestly? A lot of fandom probably won't give a shit.

But then the ckll thing happened. I was one of the first people to step up and express my disgust at how that went down. If you don't like someone you STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY. You ignore them, keep your corners, let them do what they want and you do what you want and it's all gravy. The ckll thing has been talked to death and (mostly) everyone knows all the details and it's not the point. It did trigger a wave of people expressing their distaste at the situation, as well. And a rehashment of a past occurance of community stealing.

The comments in those posts of disbelief astounded me. Some people don't care. Some people don't want to believe it. And some people just can't believe it. Because nothing has ever been said about it.

I was so tempted to say my piece about it, to write this post earlier. I have proof. I have the words. But as quickly as the ckll wank came, it died down again. Maybe because of the holiday weekend, maybe because people just don't care and we've been so incredibly wanky of late- I don't know. But in the end I figured that it would be too much and I don't want to be that person to bring up the past and drag shit through the mud again.

I've told people about what happened before. I told my friends and shared the gory details with them and they were all as flabbergasted and disgusted as I was. But it never went any further than that because I didn't want to be the bad guy. But it was brought up again this weekend and we've been talking about it in connection with the ckll wank. I checked the supernaturalcw post again, just to refresh my memory, and my heart kind of dropped. Deleted posts everywhere. I hadn't anticipated that people could go in and delete their screened comments under someone else's control. They really seemed to be cleaning up, too. What with deleting the comment in their celebratory "We took over the comm" post from June 2006 I linked above. Something to hide, Joya and Gen?

Hey, girls? I'm not dumb. I screencapped the post LONG before you ever thought to delete your comments. LONG TIME.

The original, unedited post. Some comments are not unfolded because the extension didn't work on those ones but the bulk of them are and now they've been deleted so I can't go back. Either way, all the guilty-making stuff is here.

This is the post now, edited and cleansed of all comments that may put potthead and hauntedlove in a bad light.

I was totally prepared to let this slide. I wasn't going to post a fucking thing about it because instead of complaining about how the comm was run and trying to be a bitch about it I started my own goddamn community. But then I saw the post and realized you two are running scared. You don't want to be seen as the villians. While I can't prove that you had any hand in the takeover of dean_sam, anyone who was around that night knows how excited you were about it, how you knew all the details that were going down. Hell, you and I even had a comment thread and I referenced this very situation and you threw the LJ "trustworthy person" passage at me.

And the defense that LJ instructs maintainers of a community to pick trustworthy people to help run your communities doesn't fly in situations like these. Pretending to be trustworthy and then stabbing someone in the back because you don't like the way the community is being run is just being bitchy.

So that's that. The whole thing as I know it, that would have stayed hidden if it didn't seem like potthead and hauntedlove had something to hide. A year and a half of sitting on this bullshit because I didn't want to seem like a bitch. But then I realized that just because it was that long ago doesn't mean I still can't be outraged and flabbergasted at what happened. I stood up and said that it was wrong that someone A LOT of fandom can't stand got shit on, but not for this? Whatever.

I just... I wanted to post all the facts that I have. I didn't want it to be buried under the rug. I didn't want all the people who think it's just as wrong as I do feel like they're talking to themselves when other people say, "Really? I never knew that about spn_tv".

I don't care what your justification is. If you don't like someone, ignore them. If you don't like a community or the way it's being run, start your own. It's so simple and yet seems to be SO hard.

Finally, this is in NO way an attempt to make the people involved in the ckll thing feel bad. I still don't approve of what happened, obviously, but the situations were different and I have other thoughts on that situation.

Now, with all that being said, I'm gonna go sit by the toilet because I feel absolutely sick.

Comments

[impertinence.livejournal.com]

♥ I've heard people mention this incident several times. Thanks for giving proof enough to point to next time it's brought up.

[strippedpink.livejournal.com]

This is so fucking disgraceful. My god. Fucking SRS BUSINESS COMMUNITIES, huh?

Kind of ironic that they were bitching about "power plays"...I'd think stealing something out from under someone else is the biggest power trip EVER.

*hugs you* I think a lot of people will be interested to see this come to light. Thanks.

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

The thing about this that is so appalling to me is the way that the people involved took EVERY possible measure to cover it up. They clearly knew that they were in the wrong, otherwise they wouldn't have been so thorough in literally elbowing ignoretherain out of fandom entirely.

I mean, I saw that comment that buffyspazz made - and I saw it YESTERDAY. Which means that after all this ckll/dean_sam wank appeared, someone went back and double-checked that potthead's and dieseled's tracks were covered.

You don't go to that kind of effort to erase your prints if you don't KNOW YOU DID SOMETHING REALLY WRONG. I am just disgusted, thinking about how pleased these two must have been with themselves to know that they pulled something like this off with BARELY a blip on the fandom radar. BARELY.

Honestly, everyone who is a part of supernatural_tv should feel betrayed by this move. Because implying that ignoretherain willingly stepped down from her position as mod is a flat-out lie to the entire community, and basically a betrayal (to put it dramatically). potthead and dieseled are people who a lot of people like, they're generally considered to be friendly people who contribute to fandom in a positive way. But if this is the way they're going about things, I would be embarrassed to be associated with either of them.

What it comes down to is that this is a fandom - a large community, a cluster of small communities, whatever - not an EMPIRE. If you don't like the way a community is run, you MAKE ANOTHER ONE. You don't, like... stage a coup because you're too lazy to recruit your own community members.

That's fucked.

[backinblack.livejournal.com]

... I read the capped page and WOW what a bunch of ignorant fools. THEY STOLE A COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE HAPPY ABOUT IT. OH MY GOD. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT OPENING THEIR OWN COMM. JESUS H. OH MY GOD. *BOGGLED* IF I WAS snarkstorm I WOULD HAVE REPORTED THEM TO LJ ABUSE AND DEMANDED THEIR HEADS IN COMPENSATION.

[marishna.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately LJ's policy on the matter of communities IS that you have to be wary of the people you take on as co-maintainers. My guess is that they have it that way so they don't have to get involved in sorting out matters such as these where it's personal and a "he said, she said" sort of deal. I totally understand why they would do that because who in their right mind would want to get in the middle of something like this?

But yeah. Shittastic stuff all around.

[castiel.livejournal.com]

Wow. Just. Wow. I am utterly speechless. I'm glad you posted this.

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

While I have no desire to become involved in any of this or proclaim an opinion one way or another (I've been too wanky this month already), I really respect this post. It's straightforward and I think you're doing the right thing by putting the information out there. I didn't have any clue about supernatural_tv before this wank happened, either. Granted, that all happened right around the time I was joining this fandom to begin with and I wasn't really paying attention yet, but still... it's good information to have out there. Whether people agree or disagree about your personal assessment of the situation, they should at least be afforded an opportunity to make an informed decision on the matter.

[sepiastars.livejournal.com]

I'm in the same boat - I hang out on the fringes of the community, and I had no idea. I'm so glad you put this up here, so if nothing else, I know what's going on.

[koulagirl666.livejournal.com]

You rock, you know that, right?

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

I can't believe it happened OVER A YEAR AGO. Jeez.

[dm-hpcrazy.livejournal.com]

WOW
This is insane! I am more of an audience in the fandom [i will post my views and spams but only on my journal] so i really don't know a lot of incidents or anything of such sort.
I dont even have words. Taking a community?? *shakes head*

*hugs* Hope you feel better.

Re: *channels Ruby's courage*

[redina]

I just recently "friended" (I still think that's an odd LJ term) you and caught this post. Mainly, I had enjoyed your screen caps and fics. :-)

It does make you redefine 'trustworthy', and I'm glad I don't have anything worthwhile to 'steal'. {g}

Seriously though... I'm uncertain how to say I hope the nausea you feel over these events will soon pass and you'll be able to enjoy fandom again.

[laurondo.livejournal.com]

Wow. You people really need lives.

[goodnight.livejournal.com]

I so just want this wank to be over with.

I'm still not taking sides on this whole thing, because I dont like alienating people and I still think this whole thing is ridiculous. Not only for what may or may not have happened but because it's been almost 2 years since it did. I like to believe people have the ability to change in that amount of time, I know that I have. The fact that people are still going on and on about this makes me sad because it's like saying "i've never made a huge fucking mistake before", and lord knows I have.

Say all of this is true and Joya and Jen have been lying through their teeth all this time. Ok, balls! But, find me any person who hasn't told a lie and tried to maintain it to keep their own dignity at least once in their life and I will eat my own hat.

Like I've said numerous times, I wasn't around when it did happen so I can't say 100% what happened for sure. All I have is he said/she said and "evidence" that probably wouldnt hold up in a court of law from all manner of persons involved. All I know for sure is this:

- Joya has been on my friends list for a while now and is possibly one of the nicest, most generous people I've come across and I've been using lj for almost 6 years. She's a good friend to me and that's what I care about.
- I also care a lot about people who have been saying crap about this whole situation and I love them all too. Everyone on my flist is there for a reason, and I'm not going to let wank change my mind about them. (not that this is yours, or anyone elses intention, just fact.)

We all feel right now, myself included, that we are martyrs for truth. I'm sitting here twitching going "Joya was a mod for a month before Brandi left" and "why is that girl calling her Gen when her name is Jen?" and "they added her back as a mod after that convo because they sorted things out during it, and Brandi left later under amicable terms" but at this point no one is going to listen to me, because I have no weight over this, and am probably viewed as being biased, which I can understand.

I dont know. My point is, whatever happened, happened, and if things did go down that way, well that sucks hard (although I'm still not convinced they did 100%) but things happen, people change, thoughts-words and feelings are misinterpreted. People make mistakes. I think 2 years is a long time to hold onto it all. Fandom as a whole needs to let it go.

As for the ckll thing, well I'm not going to go there. haha I dont like her, I have never gotten along with her, and I think what happened with the comm was unsurprising, if not unfair. But, she's back to running the comm by herself, so I'm willing to put the whole thing in the past.

If people are stillupset about the whole thing, then I think the best thing to do is just not friend Joya or Jen or spn_tv and move on. Shit happens, but these people aren't running for president or congress or anything of the sort, this is the internet. In the grand scheme of things it doesnt really matter.

Once again, I acknowledge that no one is going to listen to lil ole me over here, I just had to have my piece said. I just want everyone to move on and for a new spn ep to air haha.

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

I feel weird popping in and replying since this isn't my post, but as a friend of Mari's, I just want to say, first of all, that I really respect what you're saying here, and that you're defending your friends and being civilized and decent about it.

I mean... I get where you're coming from, wanting to believe your friends 100%, but I think that it's not much up for debate whether the things in the screencaps - and the obvious comment deleting - are true. And granted, yeah, people tell lies and people try to cover them up. It happens, we're all human, and none of us are perfect.

But to say If people are stillupset about the whole thing, then I think the best thing to do is just not friend Joya or Jen or spn_tv and move on doesn't mean much when Joya and Jen are obviously trying to make it clear that people don't KNOW about it. If they'd come out and said "Look, here's what we did, now you can stay or leave the community" it would be one thing. But by lying to people and twisting facts and deleting things, they aren't giving anyone the opportunity to make that decision themselves.

This post wasn't meant to start wank. The wank is already out there. This was just a matter of clearing up the he-said-she-said bullshit that's been all over the place lately as a result of other stuff.

[rutilante.livejournal.com]

I am too sick to really comment on this post so very sorry if I sound delirious but I can't stand people who delete comments to make themselves look less guilty. If you want to say something in the first place then you say it and stand by it; not hide it in case 'omg somebody might see and not like me!!'. Good on you for capping them at the time.

I, for one, am glad that the wank of the weekend is over. Like you said, if you don't like somebody then either start your own comm or leave them alone. Stealing a community is both cruel and tacky not to mention completely unnecessary with how big fandom is.

*sits by the toilet with you*

[fly-meaway.livejournal.com]

Like I said many times before, I mostly try to avoid things like that so I have no idea what happened with ckll to be quite honest, but I had also never heard about the take-over of supernatural_tv. That is just really. Really. Wow. I don't know what to say to that.

I can't even believe how long you managed to let all of this slide to be honest.

Oh and I realize I totally forgot to say what I also wanted to say: I hope you feel better soon, hun!

[fools-game.livejournal.com]

Wow. That is just insane. I sure as hell don't blame you for keeping this quiet. It sounds like some mad conspiracy theory.

Reading through all those deleted posts - Jesus Christ could those girls get any more obnoxious? How the hell did they amnage to get away with this shit when they were crowing about it in public?

Do you mind if I link to this post from my journal?

[marishna.livejournal.com]

Do you mind if I link to this post from my journal?

Sure, go ahead.

As for the rest, it's amazing how we choose to ignore things even when we hear whispers or know outright what happens.

[nemo-88.livejournal.com]

I had heard mentions of this but I wasn't sure what really went down. It was before my time and I don't like to listen to rumours. But this... wow. Thank you for clearing it all up. (It doens't make you a bitch, it makes you the bigger person.) Just because we're on the internet doesn't mean we can behave however we want. I'm completely baffled by some people's nerve.

[denorios.livejournal.com]

Wow. I had no idea any of this even went on. potthead used to be on my flist and then she randomly defriended me one day, a fact which now I'm actually kinda glad about! This stuff is all just nuts.

[titti]

I arrived here through rutilante, and I applaud you for this post. I come from a fandom (HP) where no one is afraid to speak up against wrongdoing, even if it gets wanky at times. I wish more people did what you did, because it's the only way to stop it from happening in the future.

This is just as bad as plagiarism. It's theft of something that belongs t someone else, and people shouldn't be afraid to condemn it because they don't want t hurt feeling or whatever other reason they have.

[paranoiaebw.livejournal.com]

and how comes I can't get no tang round here?

[marishna.livejournal.com]

And that's why I love you.

*uses semi-appropriate icon*

[lunachickk.livejournal.com]

Wow, I had no idea...

[moveablehistory.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad that you posted this, and I really respected that you brought it up. *hug*

[amizada.livejournal.com]

What the hell? The justification by them in the post you screencapped is just insane. So, you go in and deem the creator unfit and just kick her out. Nice. Starting a new comm would just have been the hardest thing ever.

Oh, except it isn't. Pfft.

How you were able to keep this in for a year and a half is commendable. I think I would have spilled a long time ago.

Unreal.

[spuzz.livejournal.com]

This is the reason I've taken all the SPN communities off my flist except for the newsletter and Good_SN.

I appreciate the thought out post and the information. Everyone in this fandom should know what went down.

[lightly.livejournal.com]

Didn't you post something about this in a flocked post when it was all going down? It seems vaguely familiar. Back when the fandom was just a baby and I was really kinda new to fandom in general and so I was a bit "WTF how is that even possible?"

I knew there was a reason why I was distrustful of supernatural_tv I just couldn't remember what it was.

The whole thing is just sick.

[storydivagirl.livejournal.com]

I will never understand some people in fandom. I don't know any of the involved parties for either situation, new or old, and I'm not part of the communities, but still, if these people don't understand how wrong they are, there's a problem. You don't take someone's community from him/her because you don't like how it's being run. Go start your own community. And if you're not willing to put the work into pimping it/getting the members for a community that's done the way you want? Shut up and deal with it. You don't stage a coup.

I think this goes back to certain people's feeling of entitlement within fandom and it just baffles me.